[chatlog]

[magibrain]

Okay, at this point I think everyone who reads this and cares about White Collar spoilers has watched up through 3x11 Checkmate, but just in case, I'm cutting this. (squeemu, this may potentially be of interest to you? In a what-I'm-getting-you-into sort of way? And also an I-will-complain-about-this-in-your-general-direction-forever sort of way.)

magibrain: …man, I had an awesome idea for a White Collar fic but it requires knowledge of an episode I don't think you've seen yet.
yetregressing: oh man. WRITE IT ANYWAY and I'll read it after I hit the episode?
yetregressing: is it from season 3?
yetregressing: (the episode)
magibrain: Yep.
yetregressing: which one?
magibrain: …one of those damn ones that starts with C. Checkmate?
magibrain: THE ONE WITH THE GUY
yetregressing: AND THE THING?
yetregressing: yeah, not there yet. Only 3 more episodes to get there, though.
magibrain: THE BAD GUY. AND THE STUFF!
yetregressing: OH NO
yetregressing: I just read the episode description
magibrain: And Tim DeKay's awesome and slightly terrifying acting.
magibrain: Why would you read that. Why would you do such a thing.
yetregressing: it's just the like 2 sentence thing that Netflix gives you
yetregressing: not the entire thing
yetregressing: okay I am about to make lunch and since I've pounded out like nearly 1400 words of head injury fic for my other show, I deserve a couple episodes of White Collar so I will get closer
magibrain: XD ALL THE HEAD INJURIES
yetregressing: IT WENT FROM "let's give the main character a head injury because he gets flipped over in a road and just walks away from it!" to "OOPS IN DOING THIS I CHANGED THE COURSE OF THE ENTIRE EPISODE AND THEREFORE PROBABLY THE WHOLE ARC OF THIS SEASON THAT HASN'T EVEN RESOLVED YET GODDAMMIT"
magibrain: Man, I had that with Misfire.
magibrain: "Let's have something horrible happen from Neal's mishandling of this stolen gun! WHOOPS TOTALLY REWROTE THE END OF SEASON 2."
yetregressing: it's literally the worst. and because the show is still airing this season, I don't even know how far it'll deviate and I DIDN'T SIGN UP TO WRITE AN AU OF THE ENTIRE SEASON
yetregressing: I just wanted a head injury
yetregressing: (but with head injuries come headaches)
magibrain: I feel your pain. I feel so much of your pain.
magibrain: But yeah. I kinda want, after Checkmate, for there to be a series of vignettes or something where Elizabeth asks Diana to take her out to a shooting range and train her in how to use a gun, because it's a psychological security thing, and she doesn't want to ask Peter because Peter would get all protective and worried and guilty and awkward.
yetregressing: oh kids <3
yetregressing: DIANA AND EL??? I APPROVE

[...]

magibrain: Because the writers always want everything to go Neal's way, that's why.
yetregressing: but I don't
magibrain: This is why we fic. So much fic.
yetregressing: I rarely if ever like when things go Neal's way
yetregressing: I like when Neal gets things that make him happy
magibrain: I want things to go Peter's way.
yetregressing: but I almost never like the way that Neal wants to get the things that he wants
magibrain: I feel like Neal also has a somewhat warped understanding of what will actually make him happy. (Which is nothing compared to the epic distortion of Mozzie's understanding of what will make him happy.)
yetregressing: so. true.
yetregressing: But with Mozzie... idk. Mozzie tends on the whole to make me less angry.
yetregressing: Probably because he doesn't work with Peter except under duress
magibrain: I think Mozzie is also a bit more obviously screwed up.
magibrain: Like, the writers are more inclined to frame Mozzie's issues as… kinda pathological. Whereas with Neal, the framing is so often "Neal is so clever! Look at him being all clever and suave and pulling things over people!"
yetregressing: Yeah. Mozzie gets framed as (kindly) eccentric
yetregressing: Neal is just a genius
yetregressing: when really, Neal is just a fucking moron.
yetregressing: I just yelled at the screen. Man am I glad I'm alone at the apartment.
magibrain: Peter actually hangs a lantern on Neal's stupid no-consequences life in… Upper West Side Story, I think it is. Which is really gratifying, despite the fact that it doesn't actually result in Neal experiencing, wosscalled, consequences.
yetregressing: You know it's not good when I yell "SHOOT HIM" at Keller
magibrain: See, you understand why I went through so much of the series really wishing that Neal would get shot in the chest! It's not even because I dislike him. I do like Neal. I just want his life to have things that don't go his way.
magibrain: It's like how if you really love your kids, you'll still discipline them for doing things like cheating because they're only hurting themselves.
yetregressing: Exactly.
yetregressing: Because without consequences, he'll go back to the same fucked up behaviors that piss me off so much
magibrain: I want Neal to get to a point where he has a workable life with a support network that cares about him and circumstances which are not inherently poisonous! He is working against that grand plan and must be punished.
magibrain: Er. I mean.
yetregressing: THIS
yetregressing: I mean. :|
yetregressing: I just. For all his faults, I do love Neal.
magibrain: The writers just need to acknowledge that his faults are faults and not amazing wonderful clever little quirks of his that are all okay because he's Neal.
magibrain: Like, put in some narrative awareness that these things are not good, and stop twisting everything else in the show into pretzels in order to coddle him. Do these two things, and nothing about Neal's character needs to change for me to be 600% happier with it all.
yetregressing: exactly.
yetregressing: Like ALL YOU NEED TO DO is have Neal fail more.
yetregressing: Mozzie you are a fucking moron.
magibrain: Like, there's that recurring thing where Neal goes and does untrustworthy things and then seems to be genuinely hurt that people don't trust him. And I love that, as a character note. It speaks a lot to how fucked-up he is, and how much his understanding of how the world works is rooted in his skills as a con man, because it's the only thing he's found that reliably works. It's brilliant.

Except then the show goes and frames it all in a way that makes it clear that we're supposed to be on Neal's side and hurt and outraged that people don't trust Neal, and that takes all that brilliance and collapses it into sheer authorial stupid.
yetregressing: I want to slap Neal in the face so much.
yetregressing: HEY IT'S BEAU BRIDGES
yetregressing: But SUPPORTING WHAT YOU JUST SAID

[...]

yetregressing: ....Neal, you are upset because Peter is not telling you everything
yetregressing: LET'S SIT BACK AND EXAMINE OUR LIVES, WHY DON'T WE

[...]

yetregressing: fuck you Neal
yetregressing: fuck you
magibrain: Three words: parachute malfunction fic.

[...]

yetregressing: "Whatever mess he made, he made it, and whatever comes out of it, he's going to have to clean it up." EXCEPT NO HE WON'T EL
yetregressing: THAT'S THE WORST PART

[...]

yetregressing: oh my fucking god Tim DeKay
yetregressing: Ellad;kfjasd;klfjsa;kfjsa El
yetregressing: oh god El
yetregressing: literally the perfect wife
magibrain: Tim DeKay, basically. AMAZING.
magibrain: El. ALSO AMAZING.
yetregressing: SATCHMO BEST DOG
yetregressing: THE BURKE FAMILY IS PERFECT
magibrain: YES
yetregressing: AND THEY HAVE FUCKING ADORABLE CUTLERY

[...]

yetregressing: it's almost cute how Keller is like "HEY I HAVE A TEAM OF MY OWN I LOVE WORKING THAT'S ADORABLE"
magibrain: XD
magibrain: I forget. Do you know anything about Homestuck troll romance?
yetregressing: "LOOK HOW CUTE WE ARE GUYS OH MAN WHERE IS EL TO TAKE OUR PROM PICTURE- oh wait"
yetregressing: a little bit. You can use the words and I think I'll understand what they mean.
magibrain: I feel like Keller really really wants to be kismesises with Neal.
magibrain: "NO, IT'LL BE GREAT. YOU HATE ME, I SCORN YOU, AND WE CAN'T STAY AWAY FROM EACH OTHER. SOUNDS FUN, DONTIT?"
magibrain: And then Neal is all just "But I actually do want to stay away from you." And Keller is like "BUT I REALLY LIKE YOU IN THE RUINING-YOUR-LIFE WAY."
yetregressing: ahahahah yes
magibrain: …aw, fuck, it's just occurred to me that I can probably use troll romance icons in AO3 tags, because they use card suits and those exist as HTML entities.
yetregressing: omg Mozzie <3
yetregressing: YOU ARE STILL A MORON
yetregressing: but I love you
magibrain: I could conceivably tag something as "unrequited Keller♠Neal".
yetregressing: do it
magibrain: (It is also adorable how Peter/El drags everyone into their relationship as auspictices*. I could tag things as, like, Neal♣Peter/El.)
magibrain: (Diana♣Peter/El.)
yetregressing: ahahaha <3
magibrain: (Mozzie♣Peter/El.)
magibrain: (I should probably not be allowed this power.)
yetregressing: (you are the author, magi. YOU HAVE THE POWER ANYWAY)

*Okay, so I can't actually remember if auspictices also auspistize between redrom pairs, but shhh. Shhhh.

[...]

yetregressing: WAIT THE SHOW INJURED NEAL
yetregressing: also holy crap if he was unconscious that long that speaks to a SERIOUS injury
yetregressing: which means his coordination is gonna be way off
magibrain: FIIIIIIIC
yetregressing: I just
yetregressing: THE SHOW ACTUALLY INJURED NEAL
magibrain: Yeah, this episode, not good with medical consequence. BUT YES THEY INJURED NEAL.
yetregressing: but no wonder they don't like to show that much blood
yetregressing: because it looks fake as hell
magibrain: Hah.
yetregressing: like speaking as someone who is regularly covered in their own blood
magibrain: You are the expert on bloodening.
yetregressing: it looks super orange
yetregressing: this is the part of the episode where Neal collapses
yetregressing: because tramautic brain injuries are terrifying
yetregressing: yes Peter good lawing
yetregressing: "are you sure" "do you know what that means?"
yetregressing: NO JUST KIDDING
yetregressing: the TBI part is when Neal finds out he could be free
yetregressing: he just COLLAPSES
yetregressing: and it's hilarious but really it's not hilarious at all because TBIs are terrifying
magibrain: FIIIIIC
yetregressing: I have the document. I'll need a lot more research, but.

Comments

[sholio]

Always meant to come back and reply to this comment. It's been sitting open in a tab for ages! ENERGY, I DOES NOT HAVE IT.


The sweet spot for getting me into a fandom seems to be right where I adore a lot about a work and think it has phenomenal potential, but there's also a bunch of stuff that pisses me off about it. Move too far to either side and there's either nothing to hook me into writing fic for it because it seems too polished and squared away, or there's nothing to make fic rewarding for me because I don't enjoy the media enough.

ME TOO. Actually, I think this is true of a lot of people; the fandoms that take off and get big (which White Collar isn't; I'm thinking more of things like Stargate, X-Files, Avengers) usually seem to be the ones where fandom is drawn to the potential as much as the actual thing, but there has to BE something there in order to draw fandom into it. If it's too well-written, there are no empty spaces to fill up with stories. But it has to be good enough to wallow in it, for lack of a better word -- rewatching episodes obsessively enough to get all the canon details, letting the characters live in your head.

And White Collar ... the best thing I can say for the show, honestly (and it really IS a compliment!) is that it does so well at avoiding many of the crime-drama/genre show tropes that sometimes make me feel kicked in the face as a female viewer. In four seasons, there's never once been a sexualized female murder victim; no rapes or even rape threats; and nary a damsel in distress who doesn't actively participate in her own rescue.

Aside from the respectful handling of the female characters, I find it really refreshingly atypical that Diana and Jones are both as solidly middle/upper-middle-class as the white characters (nary a ghetto background to be found), and that Diana, like the straight male characters, gets to romance sexy women undercover.

And that stuff matters. Not that the show is perfect -- in particular I really wish the casting department would give us more diversity of all sorts in female guest stars ("thin leggy white brunette" does not describe the entire female population); and of course there's everything with Kate. Still, watching other crime-drama shows kind of ... throws me a little, actually, because White Collar is generally so good about that stuff.

(And sure, you can address rape as a plot element, or whatever. It's not like it can't be done well. But there are other stories to be told!)


...just a little shift in how it's handled would make it such a (more) fascinating show. (And open up so many avenues for character exploration that aren't the "tension arises because for some reason Neal and Peter are unable to trust each other, despite the trust they've built over the course of (season count - 1) seasons, and thus end up working against each other" subplot which they really enjoy bringing back, again and again.

Aargh, yes, this. As the show goes along, I'm getting increasingly frustrated by the writers' insistence on adhering to same basic formula with Neal on the anklet, Peter as his keeper, and the self-contained con/sting episodes. A whole season in which Neal was on the run and we had Neal & Peter's storylines running concurrently, or a half-season of Peter being assigned to The Cave, would've opened up a lot of new story areas AND given them plenty of new things for Peter and Neal to butt heads over, that don't rely on "one step forward, two steps back" character development.


"Screwed-up people earnestly trying to do good in screwed-up ways" is a major fiction kink of mine, as is "people trying to do good in situations where there are no good options", and variations thereof. Which makes White Collar a really fun sandbox to play in.

*nodnod* I agree! I think with me, it's some combination of: conflicts between characters who are all right in their own way; and the general theme of people trying to be good people and hang onto happiness in a messed-up world. And White Collar's slightly candy-colored take on that particular trope is ... I dunno, nice for a mental break (which is what fanfic is for me, basically), as opposed to a darker canon where it's still the same trope, and maybe better written, but not nearly as much fun to take a break from the real world and wallow in it.


(...I'm in the process of fighting with a fic whose basic theme is "Neal thinks he knows how to fix Peter's relationships, Elizabeth thinks she knows how to fix Neal's relationships, Peter assumes that the two of them know better than he does, and every single one of them is wrong. Fun times!)

This sounds like a lot of fun! *wants*


The fact that they screw up and they're not perfect and they try for goodness without really knowing how to get there or being fully cognizant of the ways in which they fall short is amazing. The problem is that we're told via all the various framing devices that their flaws are not meaningful flaws, and shown repeatedly (Ruiz, Kramer, Calloway, Pratt) that the people who call them on this stuff are at best too hasty in their judgments and not as smart as Our Heroes and at worst completely evil.

Yes, this, exactly! The guy in charge of The Cave (his name escapes me at the moment) is about the closest they've come so far to a semi-sympathetic antagonist who isn't going to let Our Heroes get away with their usual shit, but isn't portrayed as stupid or evil. I really wish they'd give us more of this sort of thing.

And in conclusion, yay Diana! \o/