Problem is, I'd have to research the specific physiological effects of certain hormones.

[magibrain]

...I find myself vaguely wanting to write A/B/O fic, except less with sex and more with navigating tricky power dynamics and slews of body dysphoria, and with a heavily tweaked version of the whole A/B/O premise.

(Basically, the idea in my brain is that Alpha, Beta and Omega are just psychophysical modes people operate in, and while people tend to have "baseline" modes that they operate in for long stretches – sometimes even their entire lives – people can switch from mode to mode in response to various physical or psychological stimuli. Like, a baseline beta might find themselves going omega or alpha after a major trauma, for example. And there would be drugs and such which could affect what mode people operated in. Plus, while the modes would have specific physiological effects – people operating in alpha mode might have overactive adrenal glands and produce more testosterone, while people operating in omega mode would experience heat and all its attendant fun – it would only affect personality in as much as, say, gayness does. In that there would be a ton of stereotypes and there would be established cultures which people might or might not do any social commerce with, and aside from that, it's not really something you could tell by looking at someone.)

(...though you could probably tell it by scent. Because that seems to be a thing?)

(Also, people would be able to resist physical urges, with varying degrees of difficulty from "I am having this strong craving right now!" to "I am experiencing this with the intensity of an addiction." And there would probably be a lot of discussion on medical and political stages about that.)

I don't know. I've read a grand total of two A/B/O fics in my life – feels like the start of something and The toppiest girl in the school, and ironically neither of them is for a fandom I'm actually in – and I feel like this may just be a continuation of my picking at the assumed conventions of tropes I don't actually write or read (see also), which always makes me feel a little weird. But I feel like, given some of the discussion in the prompt thread for feels like the start of something, it might be a weird little space to explore which other people are also interested in seeing explored. And it does seem like there's a healthy movement in A/B/O writing areas to dissect the heck out of the trope, from what I've read.

Of course, it also doesn't help that I already have way too many other projects clamoring for my attention. Including the one where Neal is stuck on a magical Greyhound for five years.




This is one of the ways you can tell I'm ace. I find tropes that are deeply rooted in kinky sex and then expend considerable time and energy carefully plucking out the sexybits so I can nest in the kinky power dynamics. <_< One of these days I'll write and post my WC OT3 fic and it will be 80,000 words of neither sex nor romance, continuing my trend of OT3 fic which is neither sex nor romance, and everyone will be able to tell me that I'm doing it wrong. AND I WILL LAUGH FROM ATOP MY ASEXY THRONE, I SHALL EAT THE CAKE THAT IS MY BIRTHRIGHT, AND KNOW THAT I AM THE OVERMIND, THE ETERNAL WILL OF THE ACE COMMU – no, wait, that got away from me, sorry.

Comments

[adraekh]

I just discovered what A/B/O fic was last week (courtesy of this FF7 fic), and as expected, suddenly I am seeing it everywhere. (I had initially just thought it was a crossover thing. Like I thought that Sentinel Guide fic was just a crossover thing. But no! I am still learning things about fandom, even after so many years!)

The premise of A/B/O is pretty interesting; the FF7 fic I linked actually has an incredibly intriguing power dynamic, some of which sounds quite similar to what you're tossing about, though I could do with ... less of the sex, and just more of the dynamics.

But really, I am just leaving a comment to tell you that your footnote made me think of Nida: "After 17 years, my chance has finally arrived! W-w-what, Squall?! (I'll be the ruler of this Garden someday!)"

[magibrain]

Hee. Oh. Nida! When I was actively doing stuff in FF8, I had a whole personality worked up for Nida. Basically that he was a snarklord who kept saying stuff like that because no one ever listened to him, and he was amused by the extent to which he could get away with megalomaniacal ramblings.

...I miss Nida.

And, huh! I'll have to check that fic out, and... skim over all the sexybits.

[yetregressing]

/sits at the base of this asexy throne and waits patiently for crumbs of the delicious fictional cake to fall into my hands

...wait that got a lot more power dynamic-y than I intended >.>

needless to say I'm on the same page and would love to read whatever you wanna write about it. (ALSO THAT OT3 FIC SOUNDS AMAZING)

[magibrain]

Why, Ailet, you know that if you ever want to get into a weird D/S thing where we both maintain our autonomy and agency and you occasionally render service in the form or moral support and intelligent critique, and I bestow upon you the gifts of my baking and fiction, you have only to ask. :P •raises eyebrow power-dynamically seductively•

[thebestman]

HI THIS IS MAT DON'T LOOK AT ME I CAN'T REMEMBER MY PASSWORD TO MY PERSONAL JOURNAL AND THIS COMMENT IS TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE BUT damn now i'm thinking how i would not at all be adverse to a D/s thing like that.

bc your baking is awesome

I blame you.

[magibrain]

JOIN ME IN MY WEIRDLY CASUAL SPIRITUAL SERVICE D/s KINK.

...in all seriousness, my preferred 24/7 lifestyle choice would basically be "someone sees the fictional work I do as oriented toward the sacred, and steps in to do all the support work necessary to allow me to devote time to writing and refining my ability to write and developing a spiritual practice around writing, and other than that, we're basically equals, and I can occasionally mentor them in things". It's vaguely informed by Raven Kaldera and his boy, but I don't get a lot out of ritual trappings. And I tend to want to deal with people who are more or less on my level; if they're not, why am I bothering to engage with them?

Basically, in a lot of contexts, I'd be the worst Master ever; I don't like huge power splits, or impinging on people's autonomy, etc. But I do find shades of deference, and service-in-service-to-service, really compelling. And I find the idea of writing as a form of service to the larger world compelling as well. (I'm still not over that one time I got honorlisted for the Tiptree Award. I desperately want to win it someday. Even get shortlisted or longlisted. That'd be amazing.)

[thebestman]

Yeah, I don't like huge power splits, not all the time? Like. I could maybe use a little more "putting my foot down, Mat" from Birdie sometimes rather than long-suffering "please, I've asked you three times?" even though that tends to get through too, BUT we mostly save the power splits for in bed, and not even always then.

But that's sort of what I do for Birdie, even though she can't always write? I like to be able to do the groceries, earn most of the money, deal with making phone calls and shit, so that a) she doesn't have to worry about her anxiety and depression fucking things up (she does anyway, but it's mental illness sparked worry more than actual issues worry, and that's better at least) and that b) when she CAN write, she has the time and ability to do so, and the space to try to get there when she's having trouble.

And also I try to make sure she eats and everything.

It's a nice dynamic, for me - I'd like to have other sorts of dynamics at least from time to time? But not necessarily with HER, just... in general. If that makes sense.

[magibrain]

•nodnod• I actually like being the primary breadwinner, when I have the capacity to be. And it's one of those dreams of mine to be able to get there, purely doing fiction. But yeah, as for the rest of it, taking care of food and mundane concerns and being a sounding board for fiction is pretty much What I Want, even if I'm uncertain how exactly to find it.

But yes. It's a cool, comfy dynamic. There are other awesome dynamics, some of which I've fallen into, but that's one that definitely factors into my ideal future plans.

[thebestman]

One day we're gonna end up sharing a house and I'll just sit in the living room so you and Aub can both come out and bounce things off me and I'll remind you to eat and shit and to make sure everyone's contributed to the utilities fund before it's due and so forth.

[magibrain]

Hahaa, yes, excellent, I approve.

...well, my ideal living situation is actually a big plot of land with a ton of little Earthships on it and a common room we can all hang out in, so we can all have our own space and still not be isolated. (Part of this has to do with the fact that I am the twitchiest person in any of my friends circles when it comes to mess, so me having my own space would be best for the mental state of all involved. Or I could just, like, have a room with a private bathroom and set up a minifridge and induction cooktop in there and be able to hermit as long as I could possibly want.) But yes. Clearly we need a transdimensional living space so all of us can live together and still have our climate needs met.

[yetregressing]

Ahahahahah this is so tempting you don't even know. Except that often I am incapable of intelligent critique and am just reduced to keysmashing and all caps. So I don't know what's that worth in exchange for those amazing gifts, but. <3 <3 <3

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith]

I think it has a lot of potential. Some A/B/O fics write Betas as asexual, which makes sense -- like worker bees, they handle the everyday tasks while the more volatile orientations are caught up in reproductive imperatives.

I've done a lot with hormones and pheromones in some of my writing. It can be fun to explore. The Blueshift Troupers has a whole running thread about affinity -- the way people react to each other and to biotech, which works similar to the 'good chemistry' of finding a compatible mate. Except it isn't just sexual, it spans different kinds of relationships.

I am generally interested in seeing people dig deeper into social dynamics, human bonding, types of relationships, etc. -- especially in areas where people are usually distracted by sex. Take that out, and you can see other things better.

[magibrain]

Heh. The approach I'm taking is more that there are various hormonal impulses are laid on top of everyone, regardless of orientation; most people operate in a "baseline beta" mode, and then there are about 10% of the population who are "baseline alpha" and another 15% who are "baseline omega", but everyone can potentially experience swings which are either tied to various biological functions or to various stimuli. So, a fairly common one might be athletes who are baseline beta but who experience alpha swings during competitions, but then swing back into beta mode when they're not. And that also opens up a lot of interesting areas looking at how the A/B/O dynamics work in conjunction with orientation.

So, in the scene I'm toying with, I have a lesbian woman who operates in a baseline alpha mode, and then ends up unexpectedly saddled with a man who operates in baseline beta mode but is experiencing a traumatic omega swing and attendant heat. And the woman in question experiences an arousal – but not a sexual arousal. It's an intensely visceral and compelling urge, but it's more on the possessive/protective end of things and goes nowhere near her libido. (Which is fortunate, because the man in question is apparently heterosexual so far as canon has it – or at the very least, he exists in the unmarked state wrt: his sexuality – but he's also experiencing a bunch of dysphoria because he's never experienced an omega shift before.)

Which is the sort of snarly tangle of dynamics that appeals to me, really, where everyone is pushed a little out of both their own comfort zones and the zones of what you'd expect from people in that sort of situation.

Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> The approach I'm taking is more that there are various hormonal impulses are laid on top of everyone, regardless of orientation; most people operate in a "baseline beta" mode, and then there are about 10% of the population who are "baseline alpha" and another 15% who are "baseline omega", but everyone can potentially experience swings which are either tied to various biological functions or to various stimuli. <<

That makes sense.

>> So, in the scene I'm toying with, I have a lesbian woman who operates in a baseline alpha mode, and then ends up unexpectedly saddled with a man who operates in baseline beta mode but is experiencing a traumatic omega swing and attendant heat. <<

That's a good conflict.

>> And the woman in question experiences an arousal – but not a sexual arousal. It's an intensely visceral and compelling urge, but it's more on the possessive/protective end of things and goes nowhere near her libido. <<

I really like the possessive/protective aspect of alpha, and would enjoy seeing more of it outside a purely sexual context. I think I've only seen a few stories where the alpha refrained from sex because the omega (sensibly, in negative circumstances) didn't want it. So they did something else instead to be helpful.

>> but he's also experiencing a bunch of dysphoria because he's never experienced an omega shift before. <<

Yeah, that's pretty much inevitable. People are weirded by new things relating to their identity. I would look at what causes a traumatic shift. I suspect that someone would shift alpha if they felt a need to fight, because that's the alpha mode. It could give them the strength needed to win. Conversely, they might shift omega if they felt a need to defend -- say, if violence was unavailable or counterproductive -- or if they felt a desire to be protected. This could improve defensive abilities, attract help, or impair the offender's willingness to harm them. Different strategies for different moods and contexts.

But of course it would be upsetting if your subconscious felt omega would be more valuable, when your conscious mind didn't understand or accept that and wasn't used to the feelings that came along with it. Coaching someone through that -- and then the heat, which is even worse, especially the first time under such awful circumstances -- would be very challenging.

>> Which is the sort of snarly tangle of dynamics that appeals to me, really, where everyone is pushed a little out of both their own comfort zones and the zones of what you'd expect from people in that sort of situation. <<

Me too. I would read the hell out of that. Let me know if you write it?

[magibrain]

[I think I've only seen a few stories where the alpha refrained from sex because the omega (sensibly, in negative circumstances) didn't want it. So they did something else instead to be helpful.]

Yess. One of the things I want to play with is the idea that Alpha + Heat!Omega doesn't necessarily ≠ sex; there's a whole lot of ways it could play out, and even knowing the people involved, it's often difficult to predict what will happen. So while a lot of the time it does happen with an uptick in libido from one or both parties, because a lot of people are sexual people and associate intensity of emotion toward another person with sex, it's the intensity of emotion that's the real hallmark of the interaction, and it's just slipped into cultural understanding as a sexual thing in the same way that intimacy is present in cultural understanding as a sexual thing.


[I suspect that someone would shift alpha if they felt a need to fight, because that's the alpha mode. It could give them the strength needed to win. Conversely, they might shift omega if they felt a need to defend -- say, if violence was unavailable or counterproductive -- or if they felt a desire to be protected.]

•nods• And it's interesting, also, examining that in the context of a fight/flight/freeze response, where one context could have a range of different responses, not all of them actually helpful in any given circumstance. (Like, the freeze response in deer definitely does not help when the trigger is headlights on a freeway, but technology outpaces evolution, so they're kinda stuck with it. At least for howevermany generations it takes for it to assert an effect on what genes get passed down to the next generation.)


[Let me know if you write it?]

I shall! :)

[sholio]

it's the intensity of emotion that's the real hallmark of the interaction, and it's just slipped into cultural understanding as a sexual thing in the same way that intimacy is present in cultural understanding as a sexual thing.

Oooh! I really like that take on it -- and again, I love how this undermines the thing I hate most about classic a/b/o, which is the straightforward biological determinism of it; this is more like how humans actually deal with their biological urges, where there is actually a very complicated thing happening which has had all its ambiguity collapsed into a single socially acceptable interpretation.

[magibrain]

...I feel like in the thing I'm writing, Diana pretty much settles in at "protective/possessive" and parks there, and Neal pinballs all over the place and doesn't want to be anywhere he actually ends up. Poor guy. I keep considering having one of the places he ends up at be "lust", because Neal is not asexual, but... I am, so that probably won't happen, both because I'm annoyed at the prevalence of the trope and because I am under no illusions that I can write that convincingly.

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> Yess. One of the things I want to play with is the idea that Alpha + Heat!Omega doesn't necessarily ≠ sex; there's a whole lot of ways it could play out, and even knowing the people involved, it's often difficult to predict what will happen. <<

That makes sense, and better story tension.

>> So while a lot of the time it does happen with an uptick in libido from one or both parties, because a lot of people are sexual people and associate intensity of emotion toward another person with sex, it's the intensity of emotion that's the real hallmark of the interaction, and it's just slipped into cultural understanding as a sexual thing in the same way that intimacy is present in cultural understanding as a sexual thing. <<

People interpret a lot of things in a sexual way that don't have to be.

>> •nods• And it's interesting, also, examining that in the context of a fight/flight/freeze response, where one context could have a range of different responses, not all of them actually helpful in any given circumstance. <<

There is also a fawn response, aimed at ingratiating.

Best for fight: alpha, beta, omega.
Best for flight: beta, omega, alpha.
Best for fawn: omega, beta, alpha.

Freeze can happen with any, and is often a malfunction. As a strategy, they may employ it differently: alpha to set up a strike, beta for observation, omega to avoid detection.

[magibrain]

[Alpha + Heat!Omega doesn't necessarily ≠ sex]

...I'm not actually sure how that ≠ happened, there. I mean, I guess it's technically true, but I feel like I was going for =.


[People interpret a lot of things in a sexual way that don't have to be.]

Oh, god, yes.


[There is also a fawn response, aimed at ingratiating.]

Huh; interesting. That does make a lot of sense, and would make the various modes work well as adaptive (or occasionally maladaptive) stress responses, though I want to avoid presenting them wholly or primariy as stress responses. (And, really, while the exact psychological mechanisms of the mode shifts are useful as background information and conceptual scaffolding, the story I'm working on is fairly abstracted from them – much more of a character study than a wider study of the phenomenon.)

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> ...I'm not actually sure how that ≠ happened, there. I mean, I guess it's technically true, but I feel like I was going for =. <<

It looks like a conflation error to me. There were two ways to phrase it:

Alpha + Heat!Omega ≠ sex
OR
Alpha + Heat!Omega doesn't necessarily = sex

Mix them, and it reads wrong; but I figured out what you meant. They may feel hornier but aren't compelled to have sex.

>>[People interpret a lot of things in a sexual way that don't have to be.]
>
>Oh, god, yes.

Which leaves lovely wide spaces with little if any literature in them, to be explored at leisure while everyone else is trampling the same path deeper over in Fux-R-Us.

>> Huh; interesting. That does make a lot of sense, and would make the various modes work well as adaptive (or occasionally maladaptive) stress responses, <<

Most strategies can be adaptive or maladaptive depending on how and when they are used.

>> though I want to avoid presenting them wholly or primariy as stress responses. <<

In biology and psychology, a process is rarely just one thing. The causes and effects tend to be complex. So for example:

* Stress can trigger a mode shift.
* But that can be negative stress (survival threat) or positive stress (intense emotional or physical stimulation).
* Some types of stress might favor one mode, while others would favor another.
* Most people have a preferred mode, and that's going to be stronger for some than others, like the slope of a mountain to climb before mode can shift.
* Now add other people, because someone may shift in response to someone else. That includes psychological, emotional, and pheromonal interaction.
* There are probably yogis doing meditation to enable conscious mode shifts.

There might be environmental factors: tide, moon phase, light, temperature, humidity, season, etc. can all have biological effects. Someone with seasonal affective disorder might find it harder to reach alpha mode; maybe the full moon brings out the omega in more people.

Slop all that together and it becomes difficult to predict or control, but there would be some known trends.

>> (And, really, while the exact psychological mechanisms of the mode shifts are useful as background information and conceptual scaffolding, the story I'm working on is fairly abstracted from them – much more of a character study than a wider study of the phenomenon.) <<

Ah now, this is the power of intelligent literature. You don't have to put it all into this one story. You just have to know it's there. The story will shape itself accordingly.

[squeemu]

I... haven't read the A/B/O link you provided, so I probably shouldn't be commenting at all, but this reminds me a lot of the spaceship idea you had, where you need to be in a certain mindset to operate different parts of the spaceship? Or... something like that. And you could take hormones to put you in that mindset.

It does look like a really fascinating thing to play with, though. Power dynamicsssss

AND YOU HAVE BEEN CREATED TO SERVE ME CAKE

[magibrain]

Hah. Well, the spaceship thing specifically wasn't mindset, it was identity; that entire braintic came about as a way of trying to contrive a universe where if Word of God said someone was asexual, you couldn't make them not asexual without explicitly going against canon in a major way. ...I mean, if we're thinking about the same spaceship idea. (If not, I have no idea what you're referencing. :P Has it been lost to wherever forgotten braintics go?)

A/B/O is... weird, but interesting, and I would probably be more of an expert on it if it wasn't traditionally a smut trope. It's based in the incorrect (but popularly-known) wolf ethology that says packs are broken up into alphas, betas, and omegas, with alphas at the top and dominating the rest of the pack, while omegas are at the bottom of the heap and more submissive. The genre is basically "humans do that in an explicit and biological way!", which pings on some interesting xenofictive buttons, plus my love of power dynamics. But... again, it's something that I don't read a lot of, because the venerable trope of A/B/O is "omega goes into heat; alphas literally cannot resist mating with an omega in heat; smut and/or drama ensues." Which, this kink is not my kink.

Which is also kinda where approaching it from the point of view that alpha, beta, and omega are modes people operate in comes from, because I find it a lot more interesting than "this person is an alpha; this person is inherently submissive and physiologically more fuckable" and such. (Apparently the first fic of the genre wrote self-lubricating omega anuses into the fanon. Which, y'know, okay, though after some thought I concluded that this was also the sort of thing that could be glandularly controlled – nothing says that you can't just stick that into everyone, and have lubrication controlled by, say, the heat process – and also concluded that this was the kind of detail I would be unlikely ever to need to write out.) (I also kinda twitch at the casual association of lubrication, fuckability, and submissiveness, but considering that almost all I know about a/b/o is from fandom osmosis and not reading actual works in the genre, I don't know how it's actually handled. I could just be skimming the surface conceits and getting all twitchy about them. So rather than rail too much about things I don't fully know about, I'm just going to take the things that interest me and run off to play with them.)



FOR I AM THE QU– well, no, I am not the Queen of Blades, but I'm probably at least a scion of asexual-tinted fanfiction by now. Anyway, chop chop, THE SWARM REQUIRES ITS ACE FICTION, and such.

[squeemu]

I... am not sure if that is the same idea? It definitely involved spaceships choosing the people they worked with, who had to have a certain way of being. I guess. I had thought it was malleable, but maybe I'm getting my ideas mixed up, here. XD Or maybe it really did get lost to time. I do think that it was related to sexual identity, perhaps -- I feel like certain ships responded different to lesbians, pansexuals, asexuals, etc? But I could see it working a similar way with A/B/O -- to be a ship captain, you need to have an A-type personality, and that's how you get the ship to listen to you. (Maybe all ships are programmed to respond as B-type?)

I am... really weirded out at the idea of "omega goes into heat; alphas are overcome in a frenzy of sexual desire!" just because I don't think that's how it works with wolves but WHATEVER. (Also because that kink is also not my kink.)

self-lubricating omega anuses

I don't. I don't even know what to say about this, I just needed to quote it, because there's some kind of response happening. What is it I don't know. It is not good, though.

Although. I'm not sure why omega anuses would need to be lubricated unless the anus was a viable pathway towards reproduction. I mean, conceivably that's the entire purpose of being in heat; announcing to the world that you're ready to have a baby now and YOU'D BETTER DO IT SOON OR YOU'LL MISS YOUR CHANCE AND WE REALLY DON'T WANT TO DIE OUT AS A SPECIES, DO WE FELLAS? Although, you know, I guess you could say the lubricant helped to spread the pheromones that let everyone else know that that particular omega was in heat. Maybe the pheromone glands are at the rectum. /too much thinking about self-lubricating (LUBRICATING, fingers, not replicating, dear lord anuses that self-replicate would be terrifying and impractical) omega anuses

I... honestly thought I had more to say here. Now I regret having spent an entire paragraph talking about anus lubrication. :\

[magibrain]

[just because I don't think that's how it works with wolves but WHATEVER]

Well, to be fair, neither is the alpha/beta/omega ethology, unless you're looking at wolves in nonnatural situations.


[Although. I'm not sure why omega anuses would need to be lubricated unless the anus was a viable pathway towards reproduction.]

Squeem, Squeem, Squeem. This is fandom. I'm honestly surprised you think there's a problem here.

To quote from the Fanlore A/B/O page:

Omegas are generally lowest on the hierarchy (although in some fanworks Omegas are rare and prized). Male Omegas are self-lubricating and have the ability to become pregnant, sometimes referred to as being bred or mated. Lovers may form pair-bonds with a special connection with telepathic or empathetic qualities. Paired Alphas may be jealous and possessive of their mate, while the Omega may become submissive. Omegas and Alphas may go into heat and need to have sex; this may be the only time Omegas are fertile.

...and, you know, I could imagine an evolutionary advantage for anal lubrication (...I cannot believe I just typed those words) for penetrative sex, because sex in several mammal species (including humans) isn't exclusively reproductive. Maybe it just comes out of the bonobo school of social bonding through sexual activity. Granted, that is also not heat's function in mammals, but, uh... no, I think I'm done devil's-advocating. I don't need to come up with something to follow that "but".

I was going to track down the original author post discussing whether or not to warn for self-lubricating anuses, which included some very tangential references to biological function, but now I can't find it. I think the comm it was posted in locked the prompts post down. Oh, well.


[I feel like certain ships responded different to lesbians, pansexuals, asexuals, etc?]

I had a braintic where certain people had to meet certain criteria in order to perform certain functions on these alien ships – like, the navigator had to be asexual, the captain had to be poly-leaning because they had to be able to form a number of intimate bonds with people in various positions, etc.?